A Fearless Community Can Change the World - Ep 1
Show Resources:
Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited, chapter on Fear.
Show Transcript:
Kyle Brooks 0:02
Welcome to the Multiracial Ministry Mindset Podcast. In a world that feels more divided than ever, leaders in multiracial ministries face unique and imposing challenges.
Bernard Emerson 0:13
Our goal is to equip you with the principles, stories and tools you need to lead a unified people in a divided world.
Kyle Brooks 0:21
We're not church growth gurus, and multiracial ministry is not a recipe for numerical growth.
Bernard Emerson 0:27
However, it is a recipe for growth in the fruit of the Spirit. When we lead multiracial ministries well, we can disciple a new generation of Christians attuned to how the Spirit of Jesus is speaking to the spirit of our age.
Kyle Brooks 0:40
So my name is Kyle Brooks and I am a white pastor from East Oakland.
Bernard Emerson 0:45
My name is Bernard Emerson. I'm a black pastor from East Oakland.
Kyle Brooks 0:49
And together we pastor at church called Tapestry church a multiracial expression of God's kingdom, right here in Oakland, California. Well, welcome back to the Multiracial Ministry Podcast. And we are in season one. Our first episode of season one on our first value for a multiracial ministry mindset. And that value is
Bernard Emerson 1:19
Overthrowing fear, overthrowing fear.
Kyle Brooks 1:24
Why overthrowing instead of overcoming?
Bernard Emerson 1:28
Because of fearless community can change the world.
Kyle Brooks 1:32
That's right. That's right.
Bernard Emerson 1:33
And, and we are more than overcomers.
Kyle Brooks 1:37
Wer'e overthrowers. I liked that. We didn't even rehearse that before. That's great. Fear is something that is often more than a mountain in our life. It's more like a like a, like a ruler. Yeah. In our life, right, like directs our actions. And this first episode, we're talking about how a fearless community can change the world. We really believe that fear is the enemy of peace. Where fear reigns, hatred, turmoil, and judgment rule both in our inner lives and in our communities. That's why to do a multiracial ministry, we have to be committed to overthrowing the reign of fear that is dividing our world and holding us all back from being everything that God created us to be.
Bernard Emerson 2:34
1 John 4:18 tells us that there is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear. So why is this important in a multiracial ministry,
Kyle Brooks 2:52
Why is this important in multiracial ministry? Well, if you have ever been involved in multiracial ministry before, you'll know that there is a whole lot of fear.
Bernard Emerson 3:05
In fact, I, I'm fearful of people who enter into multiracial ministry, who are not fearful.
Kyle Brooks 3:15
Yeah, there's something about just being honest. There, there is a lot of fear. And we talked about this in the first episode of the podcast about multiracial versus multi ethnic, multicultural, that that fear is really at the root of race itself? Because this desire for power over other people, I think really stems from this fear of scarcity, this fear that there is not enough for all of us.
Bernard Emerson 3:53
So say more about that.
Kyle Brooks 3:55
Well, I mean, if we look at the roots of racism historically, there are economic advantages to the people who created that system. They're there in a serious economic, and many, many more types of disadvantages to people who did not create it, who are underside of it. And I think that if you look at at the history of race itself, what you discover is that there is this sense, this clear sense, that is true, or that is understood to be true without even thinking it's just like a basic belief that we have in a world like ours and the US market economy that if I have, if I need more than you have to have less, that there's a certain amount of stuff in the world, there's a certain amount of food in the world, there's a certain amount of water in the world, there's certain amount of money in the world, there's a certain amount of platinum in the world that there's you know, whatever resource that you might want, and if I need more, then you must have less. And so this fear of scarcity drives a desire for power over others, so that I can have whatever it is that I want. Whatever it is that I feel that I need. And I'm not going to be encumbered in that pursuit by the likes of you.
Bernard Emerson 5:13
Yeah. And and I think, well, I know fear probably is the leading cause of racism in that way that you just explained. And you know, we've been divided for so long, we barely even know each other. And that's because racism has driven a wedge between us.
Kyle Brooks 5:37
That's right. So what's so you're talking about? If I'm hearing you, right, this there's this vicious cycle? Where if that fear kicks off this system of race and racism, but then it also separates us? And because it separates us, it creates even more fear because what do we fear more than anything else?
Bernard Emerson 5:58
What we don't know what we don't know. Or better yet? Who we don't know. Who we don't know.
Kyle Brooks 6:05
That's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, how many times has a person that looks like me walk down the street, and move to the other side of the street when someone who looks like you walk down it? I would never move to this other side of the street when you're walking down the street, because I know you. Because I know you but if I didn't know you? Would there be something in my gut that's been formed by racism in our country? In this world? That would tell me to move. I'd have to resist that.
Bernard Emerson 6:36
And we're in Oakland, California, right. Everybody knows the story of barbecue Becky.
Kyle Brooks 6:45
Oh, boy. We're going there.
Bernard Emerson 6:47
We are going there. Everybody knows the story of barbecue Becky. Do you think it was fear that cause her to make that call to the police?
Kyle Brooks 6:58
At east in part? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't know her heart. But absolutely. But I mean, if I was to guess I would guess that'd be the predominant thing. Fear covered up by all of these secondary feelings, or all of these other ways of sort of making herself feel powerful because maybe she felt not wrongly vulnerable. And there is a there is a way in which we can feel vulnerable in the world for good reason. But there is I think, is, as we both know, way more opportunities for us to feel vulnerable when we're not actually even vulnerable. And in a multiracial ministry, those feelings come up all of the time. Okay, what since you brought a barbecue back? Yeah, you have to bring up I have to bring up college admissions. college admissions had been in the news in the last year. You know, and whether or not somebody is given affirmative action because of their racial background, right. What is feared, on the one hand, is that there won't be enough spots around people like me, right? If people like you are given an unfair advantage. A quote unquote, unfairness. This is not me, talking. I'm not. I'm just putting out there what is in the zeitgeist. But there but then there's also a fear, on the other hand, that if there isn't affirmative action, then there won't, there will lots, right for people like you who are very often the victims of implicit bias in admissions, quite apart from all the historical inequities that make it more difficult for people of color to rack up the kind of scholastic and extracurricular accolades that white students can because of historical inequities. So there's fear on both sides from both directions. And the only way forward is if we are not being ruled and reigned by fear and its minions. So, fear generates racism you said earlier. How have you personally experienced that if I could be so bold to ask?
Bernard Emerson 9:26
You are being bold to ask. Well, you know, most people don't know but you know that. I am the Regional President for my Converge district. Converge is a what were formerly the Baptist General Conference, but now we consider ourselves a movement of like minded churches. Other people might consider us a denomination, but we don't consider ourselves a denomination, we consider ourselves a movement of like minded church, which has 10 regions across the US. But I was recommended by the previous regional president for the position and man I went through a series of six or seven interviews and what made that time what specific to your question is before I interview we were at a pastors conference and you know me I had on a Black Lives Matter t-shirt. This was during COVID and I forget those masks that the kind of dude that that's like a sleeve that goes on, but I have one of those on and he said black lives matter. And I was probably only what only one of five, six black people that were there. But no one asked me why was I wearing it? No one asked me my thoughts on it. No one asked me nothing about it, they just went on business as usual. But I heard during the interview process.
Kyle Brooks 11:17
The interview for the Regional President position.
Bernard Emerson 11:19
That some people were fearful of naming me or elected me or voted on me to be the regional president because I wore have Black Lives Matter stuff. And I might promote Marx's concepts.
Kyle Brooks 11:40
Because you just said something that the gospel deeply affirms that the lives of black people matter.
Bernard Emerson 11:49
Yeah. And I don't even know what Marx's concepts are. But, uh, but I think it was the fear of me being marxist, not of me. But the fear of my blackness.
Kyle Brooks 12:09
And, and that people didn't even come up to you to ask,
Bernard Emerson 12:13
Didn't even ask. No. But it came up later. And man needless to say, I don't have anything to offer people other than my authentic black self. Yeah. And that's, that's all I have to offer. And if you can't accept that, then I don't know. But I stopped trying to fit in a long time ago.
Kyle Brooks 12:39
Yeah, I know that. Man, when I first met you, you were wearing a mohawk, I believe at the time. And I didn't know any other pastors ever. that sport and a mohawk. So I know you stop trying to fit in. I mean, I'll say from my side, you know, I remember the very first year over a decade ago that I moved to Oakland, and I was living in this neighborhood. And I would walk down my street to go to a coffee shop, you know, whatever, take the train somewhere. And there was this guy, a black man, who was wearing a tank top, who was hanging out in front of his house, always was some other guy, there's a different guy every time next to his, his, like, kind of broken down van with tricked out rims, you know, in the middle of the day. Aways there in the middle of the day. And I had this immediate and visceral like, I didn't plan it, I didn't want it. But I had this immediate thought that came from a fear in my mind, I should just move to the other side of the street, I should just walk. I mean, I'm going that way. I'm gonna go that way. Eventually, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a right turn, I should just go to the right side of the street. Now, you know, it's now or later, might as well go now you're rationalizing in my mind. Right. And I remember going back to my seminary later on that year after I had processed a lot of this and just checking in with different professors and whatnot. And I'm talking to my philosophy professor, and I'm sharing with him this experience. And, and he's trying to make me feel better about it. He says, Well, Kyle, you know, okay, you shouldn't feel bad about that because that is that you are just logically extrapolating from statistics. I mean, this is his argument, that, that if most of the say, robberies on the street, are perpetrated by young black men in your city, then if you're trying to stay safe, then the logical conclusion you should reach is that you should avoid being alone on a street corner with a young black man that you don't know. And I sat with that for a second. And I thought, You know what, that is what I've been doing. If I'm honest. And it is logical if my main goal is self preservation, and not love. If my main goal is preserve myself at all costs, then I will avoid any person who statistically could theoretically be a threat to me in any sort of way. Now, of course, he can't always do that. But I said to him, after I thought about it for a second, I said, you know, what, what if my main goal was love? And would that cause me to look to different statistics to extrapolate from like, for example, this statistic that says a vast, vast, vast majority of young black men don't rob people. Never have robbed anybody. Maybe it would be logical then to assume that the chances are really good that this guy is not going to rob me. I started walking down the left side of the street. And I got to know Carl and he's a cool guy. He likes fishing. We bonded it over fishing, you know, and I got to hear a little bit about his life. And like, you know, we were good neighbors after that.
Bernard Emerson 16:18
And that happened as a result of you replacing that fear you had with love.
Kyle Brooks 16:28
That's right. There is no fear in love. That's what that's what the Bible says. And it turns out, it's true. Go figure.
Bernard Emerson 16:38
I want to ask you some, I want to ask you, so Okay. I see you bracing yourself?
Kyle Brooks 16:42
I'm like, this is not in the notes.
Bernard Emerson 16:48
Yeah, it's not. Okay. Um, years ago, we were in Ferguson, Missouri. And they took us to this play, and we formed a demonstration. At that play your yearly I remember the night. And I remember us walking through the crowd and in the seated crowd, and we were demonstrating. And I remember you saying that you had some fear. I remember you said you had some fear. You talked to me about this. But you said, and you was fearful of what the other white people were thinking? Talk to talk about that.
Kyle Brooks 17:30
Well, it was something that I had never been aware of before, inside myself. It's not to say I didn't feel it before, but I didn't think I knew it was there until we were at that demonstration. Set the stage a little bit more that that audience was, you know, probably what, 6,000, 7,000 people in St. Louis. And it was a play that was a, frankly, like a deeply racist play. Yeah, deeply problematic. And not just racist in terms of the storyline, but then also in terms of the casting and who was put where in the storyline, and folks were soaking it up. So anyway, we're, we're demonstrating at this play on the anniversary of Mike Brown's death. And, and, and I remember looking at in people's eyes that were looking at me, and I can't I honestly can't remember if it was just their looks, or if it was their words that said, Traitor, traitor. Like, how could you throw in your lock with them? And like I said, I don't know if that was just in their looks, or it was in their words, or if it was just part of my own psyche that was that was telling me that I'm a traitor. Because when you grow, frankly, like when you grow up white in America, and I think that this is fair to say for most people who don't grow up in like, a deeply, deeply intentionally racist, family or or area that you don't think of you don't, you don't tend to think of white people as like, my people. You know what I mean? Yeah, like, we're not a collectivistic group. Yeah, we need people, but we don't think of ourselves as a collective. And that's part of the how race functions, right? We can talk more about that later. But anyway, it was shocking to me because of all the sudden I was thinking that way. It was like, Oh, wow, I think these people see me as a traitor to our people. I didn't know we had a people. I didn't know we had a people but there is this fear of betraying people. And then of course, that means maybe potentially fear that many people that I love would feel betrayed by me. Now, I don't see it as a betrayal. I actually see it as as as freeing to me and to white brothers and sisters and family members to to actively oppose racial injustice, but it felt like that at the time. There was an inner fear that I had to deal with that had nothing to do with other people had everything to do with my with my own place in the world and who I who I am.
Bernard Emerson 20:10
Yeah, I just I remember that. I just wanted you to touch on that a little bit.
Kyle Brooks 20:15
And that's that's bringing me back.
Bernard Emerson 20:17
Yeah. And the only part of that night that was scary or fearful for me is when the police showed up.
Kyle Brooks 20:24
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. And there were things that were fearful that happened. . Yeah. So, this season, we're gonna be talking about overthrowing seer. Many of the practices that we explore in this season are practices that we believe that I mean, not just we believe we've actually experienced when we engage these practices over time, they do overthrow fear in our lives and in our communities. Those practices include things like
Bernard Emerson 20:57
Leading into healthy conflict, creating equitable systems or structures being willing to fail. This is a tough one, apologizing and quickly and fully.
Kyle Brooks 21:08
Yes. And fully. Oh, man, that's gonna be a hard pill to swallow for some of us.
Bernard Emerson 21:14
Becoming lifelong learners of the other. This is a good one following the Holy Spirit's lead. And all of these help us to overthrow fear in our communities.
Kyle Brooks 21:26
Yeah, that's right. So if you are wondering to yourself, Okay, they started out with this idea, this, the title of the podcast, a fearless community can change the world. How do you back that claim up? Well, all I have to say is all those things that Bernard just said, imagine the whole world doing those things, right? Imagine a whole world that was living as if fear didn't rule. Imagine the whole world engaging, healthy conflict. And instead of playing politics, or being passive aggressive. Imagine a whole world that had intentionally created equitable systems and structures. Imagine a whole world that was able to apologize quickly and fully, not just I'm so sorry, you feel that way? Right. I mean, imagine how the world would be different. That is why we are very confident that a fearless community can change the world. Because when you live into this fearless reality. When you do the practices that come along with being fearless, the world looks like a totally different place. And a multiracial ministry is actually possible.
Bernard Emerson 22:40
Yeah. So we want to give some biblical examples. What's the first biblical example that comes to your mind?
Kyle Brooks 22:48
I mean, I think the first biblical reason that we can say overthrowing fear is deeply important is because the Bible says Do not fear over and over and over and over and over again. It is the most frequently repeated imperative in Scripture. Do not fear. A story that might come to mind is the story of Exodus. .
Bernard Emerson 23:15
Moses was fearful. God told him to go tell Pharaoh something he's like, I can't speak well. And I'm quite sure he said, I can't speak well, because he was scared.
Kyle Brooks 23:32
Yeah. Well, if and fear had driven him out of Egypt to begin with, right? Yeah, it was gonna be drowned out what you did when he murdered that Egyptian soldier. Right? And then, you know, it's all throughout the story of the Exodus. Not just if Moses people who are afraid of starving in the desert complaining to Moses, maybe we should go back.
Bernard Emerson 23:49
Yeah. Or or Moses is up there on the mountain to long. He's not coming back.
Kyle Brooks 23:55
You're in make us a god. And then finally, sort of, in that story, I think that that that fear culminates in this quintessential biblical story of fear where Caleb and Joshua and the spies go to Jericho. They go to Jericho and they come back with their report and they say, man, these people are giants
Bernard Emerson 24:14
Let me ask you this. Do you think that the people were actually giants? Or do you think there was something else going on at play? Did they really see giants?
Kyle Brooks 24:26
Well, I don't know if those people were six feet plus, or if the Israelites were particularly short. But I think it stands to reason that if you are a people who have been slaves for generations, yeah. Then when you look at Jericho and you see these free folks that are standing tall, you might be afraid of the confidence with which they walk around in the world. You might be afraid of the economic chemic prosperity, they seem to have fear of even the fortress that was Jericho, it could make people look a whole lot bigger and scarier than they actually are. There's a there's a practice that God gave His people in the desert that I think is a really interesting practice. Like why this of all the things he he gave them mana when they were afraid of dying from starvation. But he didn't just give them in and say, all right, here's your mana take however much you want, or need.
Bernard Emerson 25:33
Only collect the note for today only for the day.
Kyle Brooks 25:38
In other words, don't let your fear of scarcity drive you to hoard food for yourself or your family. Trust that I will provide for you again tomorrow because God does not operate in a world of scarcity. He just doesn't. Yeah, God has enough, you guys enough. He has enough. So he is forming his people Israel over 40 years, with this practice of faith over fear. So we have to, we have to wrap this up. But I think we would be remiss not to talk about what the gospel has to say, what the good news about Jesus has to say specifically about overthrowing fear. So what does the gospel have to say about this?
Bernard Emerson 26:25
God has shown His perfect love to us by sending His own Son for us and dying for us. And by raising Him from the dead, so that even in death, that most fearsome enemy would not strike fear in us anymore. And if we don't have to be afraid of death, we don't have to be afraid of anything. Jesus conquered death. We don't have to be afraid of anything,
Kyle Brooks 26:54
Man. And if we don't have to be afraid of anything, that certainly means we don't have to be afraid of each other. We don't have to be afraid of people from different racial backgrounds.
Bernard Emerson 27:04
It starts with us not being afraid of each other.
Kyle Brooks 27:06
We don't have to be afraid that there aren't gonna be enough spaces in college for us. We don't have to be afraid that there's not going to be enough food on the table, there's not going to be enough economic resources for all of us. If we're not afraid of death. What do we have to be afraid of? It reminds me actually, of when we were in Ferguson, and there was a there is one particular organizer who was as part of the protests after Mike Brown's death. And he remembers standing in front of a tank and saying I'm no longer afraid to die. So what can you do? What can you do? What can you do to me? I was so inspired by that. And it reminded me of N.T. Wright? The theologian N.T. Wright biblical scholar, N.T. Wright, who said, Why do you think why do you think Caesar was so afraid of this ragtag little band of Christians as followers of Jesus? It's because they believed in the resurrection. Because they believe in the resurrection. And when you believe that death is not the end, man, the Colosseum sucks, but what can you do? What could you do? What can you do to me? So we that's why we believe a fearless community can change the world because there is no power no might, that can that can keep us from pursuing the love that God wants us to share even as sacrifice to ourselves. The last thing I'll say is that when Jesus came to die for us and provide the way to new life, through the resurrection, He did not do it without fear. It's not that fear didn't have any impact on his life. If you remember the story, I mean, I know you remember this story. But if our listeners remember this story, Jesus sweat drops of blood. He was so terrified of not just his death on the cross, but the experience of having the presence of the Father stripped away. He was so terrified of that, but what did he do? He overthrew it. He overthrew it. He said, Not my will, but Thy will be done. That's who we're following. That's why we believe in fearless community can change the world because a fearless man changed the world forever.
Bernard Emerson 29:22
Yes, he did.
Kyle Brooks 29:23
So at the end of every episode, one of the things that we love to do is provide a resource for people, right? We want to provide a resource for for listeners at home. If you want to dig deeper into these concepts, into these ideas, into these practices, we want you to be equipped with stuff that you need to continue on in this multiracial ministry mindset. So one of the resources I'm like our resident nerd in this podcast.
Bernard Emerson 29:51
You're the resident recommender. Sounds better than nerd.
Kyle Brooks 29:55
I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. Resident recommender, I receive it. So today I'm going to recommend this book called Jesus and the Disinherited. Jesus and the Disinherited, written by Howard Thurman, who actually was a minister in San Francisco and right nearby us, he wrote this book. And there is a whole chapter in this book on fear. On fear and the dynamics that fear creates in a world that has been shaped and structured by racial power dynamics. Tt is a really powerful book. And it's a really eye opening book, I think for for a lot of folks that says things that they may have felt for a long time but didn't put words to and for others, it might be a chance to get close to the pain that creates fear. But it's a really, really wonderful resource. And when you read it, I think that you won't be able to put it down without a sense of if we could overthrow this. It change everything.
Bernard Emerson 31:00
Well, if the people like listening to the podcast, subscribe! You can go to multiracialministry.com, and you can find us there. You can find us on all podcast platforms. Instagram, Facebook, Youtube!
Kyle Brooks 31:23
Thank you for joining us today for multiracial ministry mindset and we will see you next time. Alright.
Bernard Emerson 31:30
We want to thank you for listening to the multiracial ministry mindset podcast, where we are dedicated to helping you lead a more unified people and a divided world.
Kyle Brooks 31:40
And if you enjoyed this episode, why don't you share it with a friend or follow and subscribe yourself and if you want to connect more, you can always find us at multiracialministry.com and on Facebook and Instagram at multiracialministrymindset. See you next time.