Multiracial vs. Multiethnic - Ep 0
Show Transcript:
Kyle Brooks 0:02
Welcome to the Multiracial Ministry Mindset Podcast. In a world that feels more divided than ever, leaders in multiracial ministries face unique and imposing challenges.
Bernard Emerson 0:13
Our goal is to equip you with the principles, stories, and tools you need to lead a unified people in a divided world.
Kyle Brooks 0:21
We're not church growth gurus, and Multiracial Ministry is not a recipe for numerical growth.
Bernard Emerson 0:27
However, it is a recipe for growth in the fruit of the Spirit. When we lead multiracial ministries well, we can disciple a new generation of Christians attuned to how the Spirit of Jesus is speaking to the spirit of our age.
Kyle Brooks 0:40
So my name is Kyle Brooks, and I am a white pastor from East Oakland.
Bernard Emerson 0:46
My name is Bernard Emerson. I'm a black pastor from East Oakland.
Kyle Brooks 0:49
And together we pastor at a church called Tapestry church, a multiracial expression of God's kingdom, right here in Oakland, California. Welcome to the Multiracial Ministry Podcast. This is our very first episode, ever.
Bernard Emerson 1:11
And I'm excited!
Kyle Brooks 1:12
Man, we have been thinking about doing this for two years.
Bernard Emerson 1:17
Two years.
Kyle Brooks 1:18
And finally, pulling the trigger. Finally dumping that false humility and says, what do we have to offer? Just offering whatever we have to offer. So I'm excited today, we are going to be talking about multiracial versus multiethnic. Now, why do we call this the Multiracial Ministry Mindset, instead of multiethnic or even multicultural? We break down the difference in this episode between those terms, and give a few examples of how a ministry that thinks of itself as multiracial, sometimes makes different choices than one that thinks of itself primarily as multiethnic, or multicultural.
Bernard Emerson 2:00
Right. First, as we get into this, what would you say a multicultural ministry is?
Kyle Brooks 2:07
Multicultural ministry? Well, I think it's important to say that a multicultural ministry can be monoracial. Because people have the same race.
Bernard Emerson 2:19
Yep.
Kyle Brooks 2:20
And the same ethnicity can have very different cultures, if they're, for example, from different generations, different regions, or of a country or the world. So multicultural, has more to do with your practices and ways of relating, then it does I mean, aesthetics, the music choices, you know, all of that, then it has to do with your sort of appearance and how your appearance drives people to respond to you in the world.
Bernard Emerson 2:49
Yeah, so what I hear you saying is multicultural could be two white guys with one from Ireland and one from England. They have two totally different cultures.
Kyle Brooks 2:59
Oh, yeah. I mean, especially if you talk to those Irish folks. They're gonna highlight that.
Bernard Emerson 3:07
You know, you got two black people- one from East Oakland and one from West Oakland that are very different.
Kyle Brooks 3:14
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So multicultural in some ways. I mean, I don't know if you agree with me here. But I think in some ways, multicultural is a more inclusive term than multiracial. When it comes to what most ministries actually are. Yeah, I think multicultural, there are multicultural ministries out there that are not multiracial. Yeah. Like lots of them, most of them.
Bernard Emerson 3:40
And multicultural ministry. What it does is it invites different cultural practices. It invites everybody to bring like, like they once a year they have at a church, they may have a multicultural celebration.
Kyle Brooks 3:54
Yeah. Right. Right.
Bernard Emerson 3:56
And where everybody is bringing their different foods, everybody is dressed in their different traditional guards or what have you, but yeah,
Kyle Brooks 4:04
Yeah, exactly. And that's also I think, an important point to make here is that we are not saying we do not call ourselves a multiracial ministry mindset, because we don't see ourselves as doing multicultural.
Bernard Emerson 4:18
Right, right.
Kyle Brooks 4:19
But actually, if you are exclusively thinking of yourself as multicultural, but not really thinking in terms of race, then you might just be doing the sorts of positive, culturally affirming celebrations, which are good and important and necessary. But the problem is that you might be guilty of pretending that the people groups involved don't have real history with you.
Bernard Emerson 4:51
So why don't we call it the multiethnic ministry mindset?
Kyle Brooks 4:59
Well, this this one is a little bit more nuanced, right? A little bit trickier. Ethnic comes from the term ethnic, which comes from ethnos. In Greek it means nations or peoples. It basically just, multiethnic means that you got people from different national or ethnic come froms in, in the group, right? It does a little bit of a better job at capturing the fact that we're that there's a history behind our identity. But as we kind of mentioned before, you can have different ethnicities within the same racial group. Right? Yep. So you can have Ghanaian a person of Ghanaian descent and a person of Nigerian descent. Who are both black. Right? American, right? Depending on how you identify.
Bernard Emerson 5:50
I'm cool with black.
Kyle Brooks 5:53
That's why I said, I know you. I know you from our some of our listeners out there might not know that about you. So, for example, like, I'm Irish American, by ethnicity, right. But culturally, really, I'm white American. I think that predominates, what I come to a room with. What I come into a community with. And it predominates how people see me people don't look at me and go, oh, you must be Irish American unless I'm sunburned. And then people know, I must be Irish American.
Bernard Emerson 6:31
Or would you leave?
Kyle Brooks 6:33
Right? Exactly. Or would I leave with the Irish goodbye. And, you know, you've got a lot of you got a lot of distinction, especially like within the Latino community or the Latin X community, right? You have, you may have a church that is Hispanic, but it's actually got many ethnicities within it.
Bernard Emerson 6:54
Right. And so I can see a problem with sin, multiethnic of us not getting that our history together.
Kyle Brooks 7:05
That's right. That's right. Yeah. And we could just do, again, kind of move into these like cultural celebrations, or an awareness of your history as your ethnicity and my history as my ethnicity. But forget that we actually have history, because of the way race and racism has shaped our society.
Bernard Emerson 7:29
Whoa, whoa, are you getting ahead? You're getting ahead.
Kyle Brooks 7:32
I may be getting a littlebit ahead. So how is this showing up? I want I want you to tell the story about that conference that we attended many, many years ago, that kind of highlighted some of these differences for us.
Bernard Emerson 7:44
Yeah. Well, we took some members of our new form congregation or church to a conference. And it was a good job of what a multicultural celebration. I mean, they had flags from every nation all around the building. They had people from different nations and nationalities up singing. But needless to say, it was controlled by one group. And that group was the dominant culture.
Kyle Brooks 8:19
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I would even go so far as to say some of the speakers I think, felt that
Bernard Emerson 8:24
Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely.
Kyle Brooks 8:26
Because it was like, two different conferences happening at the same cotton linens were like the conference leaders were like, multicultural celebration. But some of the conference speakers were like, whoa, wait a minute. Yeah, I thought we were going to talk about like, the real rough stuff that we're struggling with with each other.
Bernard Emerson 8:45
And and, and they had excellent speakers. They had excellent speakers, but I don't think the speakers knew what they were asked what they were getting into.
Kyle Brooks 8:57
Yeah, yeah.
Bernard Emerson 8:58
I think they put all switcheroo on him.
Kyle Brooks 9:02
Well, or maybe, I mean, they just, maybe people were just really expecting, on the one hand, a multicultural conference and on the other hand, a multiracial conference. This was not long after Mike Brown was murdered. And there was the Black Lives Matter movement that had really sort of kicked off was in full, you know, full steam ahead. So I mean, I can understand why some people would come into that going, well, we got to talk about that.
Bernard Emerson 9:35
Right. And like I said, they did an excellent job of celebrating the cultures. I give them that can't can't take that from them. They did an excellent job celebrating the culture. Yes. But yeah,
Kyle Brooks 9:47
Yeah. So multiracial ministry intentionally places the emphasis on race.
Bernard Emerson 9:56
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Say that again?
Kyle Brooks 9:58
Multiracial ministry that terminology intentionally places the emphasis on race. Tell us a little bit about why that's important.
Bernard Emerson 10:08
Because power dynamics, and we would be foolish to think power dynamics are in operation everywhere, but the church. When we say multiracial, we're putting the emphasis directly on race, and I believe directly where it belongs.
Kyle Brooks 10:28
Yeah, I think multiracial. It immediately brings up power dynamics, because power is the main issue at the heart, you might say, of why race exists. Why it was created as a way of stratifying society so that some people could have power at the expense of other people? And I think it also immediately brings to the forefront because it's talking about power, these historical ways in which power has been abused. Right, these historical tensions both I mean, historical in the sense of, like, far past, but also historical in the sense of the very recent past. Yeah, I mean, even present power dynamics, and it does all of that, while still including ethnic and cultural come from, because if you got two people of a different race in the room, you can be pretty confident that they have some pretty different cultural come froms. And different in a different ethnicity or different ethnicities, plural. So it's, it's not more specific, while excluding all those really important things about multi ethnic and multicultural ministry. It's actually more inclusive, we think, that at least in the way that we've done ministry,
Bernard Emerson 11:48
Yep. And listen to this, the term multiracial focuses more clearly on the operation of race. And it points to the necessity of seeing and addressing racial structure.
Kyle Brooks 12:00
Right, which is so crucial in the church. This is something that we're going to be talking about in a future episode in Season One, right, where we're gonna be talking about creating systems and structures within ministries within churches that address the power dynamics of race.
Bernard Emerson 12:18
Yeah. And I think it's being intentional about acknowledging the reality of race. Acknowledging the reality of race, and its basis for privilege and oppression.
Kyle Brooks 12:32
Can you say a little bit more? I mean, we're just spitballing here. Can you say a little bit more about why not not even necessarily as a pastor, but just as a black man in the church, why it's important that race is acknowledged as a factor in a multiracial setting.
Bernard Emerson 12:51
As a black man, not as a pastor, I think race is important to acknowledge because, like you pointed out our history together. And that's a history no matter how we look at or how we try to it can't be ignored. Yeah. It can't be ignored. And race is important, because it forces us acknowledging race forces us to have those difficult conversations. Yeah, those much needed conversations, those hurtful conversations. Yeah, those heated conversations, but at the same time, the much needed conversations, so we could move together. Watch this, as one. Not a diverse group. But as a as a group of one.
Kyle Brooks 13:43
Yeah. Now, it's only because I asked you to put your pastor hat on the backburner that you didn't do the three part alliterations you said hurtful, heated, and then I was like, Oh, he's gonna say healing. He is gonna say healing. But he didn't do it? I was deeply surprised. But I did ask you to put your pastor on the back for a second. And that's I mean, what you're talking about is leaning into healthy conflict? Which is a crucial element of any healthy church. But even more crucial, maybe of a multiracial church or ministry, and we're going to talk about that in the first episode of season one.
Bernard Emerson 14:22
I remember a time an incident had happened where George Floyd, and we set up three meetings with our community, our church. The first one was just for people of color only. We're down to lament for them to vent for them to say how tired they was of this happening. And then the next meeting, we invited the white people then, and they lamented and they lamented with us. And then we move to a third conversation. We were just like we got to talk about this, we got to have this conversation of race. And I believe that opened a lot of doors, it freed a lot of people in our church. And it let them know that we cared about them how they felt and what they were dealing with.
Kyle Brooks 15:19
That's right. Yeah. And if you don't acknowledge the reality of race, if you only acknowledge the reality of culture, or the reality of your personal, historical, national background or heritage, then in moments like that, we can't actually see each other. Because what we're dealing with, is grounded in the reality of race, even if that is a reality about our world that is broken, even if that system of race and racial oppression was created, and sin and brokenness, it is the reality of our world, and it impacts our lives. And so if we can't have that conversation, then we can't even see each other, and what each other is really going through. Right. And that's, and that's actually something we're going to be talking about also this season in season one, about being lifelong learners of the other.
Bernard Emerson 16:15
And I know we're going to talk about it, but like, I consider you to be special, I consider you to be special because I haven't met or do I know a lot of white people that think like you in terms of justice, and equity, and equality. And I just want to ask you, how did you get here? Like, what was that journey like for you?
Kyle Brooks 16:44
Oh, man, I don't know if we have all the time that it takes to describe that whole journey. But what it was like, Well, for one thing, it's not over. And I think that's actually like a pretty important part of that. I think as soon as we do, I'll just speak for myself, as a white person, as soon as someone like me thinks that their journey and understanding of race and racial dynamics is over. I mean, then it really is over. Like, there is no way that I am going to be able to catch up to you. Because I had to actually explicitly intentionally look at these things in a way that you were forced to look at them your whole life. So you have a lot more learning under your belt, not just because you're much much older than I am. Sorry, I had to. I got my first white mustache hair the other day, and as I just got to throw in, I can't feel bad about that. No, but also because like, it's just been forced in front of your face your entire life. And it hasn't been for me. So, I think honestly, for me, where it starts and where it started, was a theological awareness that the Jesus that I follow that I call my Lord. My master is a brown skinned Palestinian Jew, not a blonde, blue eyed, white European,
Bernard Emerson 18:25
Not Viking Jesus?
Kyle Brooks 18:27
Right. And at the same time, I was coming to some awareness of the fact that I actually had never been led. Like, really led by a person of color. I mean, I had professors, yeah, but like, really in a position of authority over me. And the only one that I had was Jesus. So I figured that I needed to be led by more people of color in my life. And as I started to put myself in places where I could be spoken to directly, they started telling me, hey, you need to just get closer to the pain. You're so far away from the pain. You just need to get closer to the pain. I just kept asking, Well, how do i Where do I go? How do I do that? And just kept following their advice. So really I only have what I've been given by other people. But I think the core thing for me and for us, even as we have this conversation, is that we are not just doing this because it is the theme of the day, right? Because in the 21st century in America, how can you not be talking about race, right? We're doing this because we really genuinely believe that it is a core value grounded in the Gospel of Jesus. That because of who He is because of who the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity decided to become as a human being. We have to talk about this stuff today. This season. What are we going to be talking about?
Bernard Emerson 20:01
This season, we're going to be talking about leaning into healthy conflict. That's one of our topics. We're talking about creating equitable systems and structures. And we're talking about becoming lifelong learners of the other.
Kyle Brooks 20:19
Yeah. And several other things.
Bernard Emerson 20:21
Yeah, we got a whole lineup for them.
Kyle Brooks 20:25
We're going to have all of this conversation under the banner of one value. One value we have. We have three main values, cultural values at Tapestry Church, which is the church that we pastor together. And one of those cultural values is going to be the focus of this entire season, and is going to be the value out of which all of these practices come. And that value is overthrowing fear. So that's what we're going to be talking about in this upcoming season. Our inaugural season of the Multiracial Ministry Podcast. Very excited to do this with you B.
Bernard Emerson 21:03
Me too. Well, I'm very excited to do it myself, but I'm equally excited to do it with you.
Kyle Brooks 21:11
I appreciate that. I appreciated that. Nothing like confidence to make these conversations go well. And if you're there at home, and you have enjoyed what you've heard, we would love to join you on this journey through Season One, Overthrowing Fear. Subscribe, share with your friends, share with other people at your church that you're participating in multiracial ministry with, so that together we can move forward as one community.
Bernard Emerson 21:38
And even if you're not participating in multiracial ministry, if you're a homogeneous church that wants to move in the area of multiracial ministry, this podcast is for you too. so share and we invite you to listen,
Kyle Brooks 21:54
That's right. Yeah. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll see you in the first episode of season one.
Bernard Emerson 22:01
We want to thank you for listening to the Multiracial Ministry Mindset Podcast, where we are dedicated to helping you lead a more unified people in a divided world.
Kyle Brooks 22:10
And if you enjoyed this episode, why don't you share it with a friend or follow and subscribe yourself and if you want to connect more, you can always find us at multiracial. ministry.com and on Facebook and Instagram at Multiracial Ministry Mindset. See you next time.