Following the Holy Spirit’s Lead - Ep 7
Show Resources:
Prayer by Dr. King from Conversations with God
Show Transcript:
Kyle Brooks 0:02
Welcome to the Multiracial Ministry Mindset podcast. In a world that feels more divided than ever, leaders in multiracial ministries face unique and imposing challenges.
Bernard Emerson 0:13
Our goal is to equip you with the principles, stories and tools you need to lead a unified people and a divided world.
Kyle Brooks 0:21
We're not church growth gurus, and multiracial ministry is not a recipe for numerical growth.
Bernard Emerson 0:27
However, it is a recipe for growth in the fruit of the Spirit. When we lead multiracial ministries Well, we can disciple a new generation of Christians attuned to how the Spirit of Jesus is speaking to the spirit of our age.
Kyle Brooks 0:40
So my name is Kyle Brooks and I am a white pastor from East Oakland.
Bernard Emerson 0:46
My name is Bernard Emerson. I'm a black pastor from East Oakland.
Kyle Brooks 0:49
And together, we pastor at church called Tapestry church, a multiracial expression of God's kingdom, right here in Oakland, California.
Bernard Emerson 1:01
Well, we are back and look already, this is episode seven of season one.
Kyle Brooks 1:07
We are in our final episode of season one. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Well, we are so grateful that you have listened this far that you've come on this journey with us. In the multiracial ministry mindset. We're so grateful that we have been able to share some of the things with you that have been shared with us over the years that God has done with us and through each other and through other people that we've learned from. So we would just love it, if you would tell your friends about the podcast, subscribe, like it on social media, all that good stuff, because this movement of God's multiracial Kingdom only keeps going when we go public with it. So you know, we would love for you to do that. Today, what are we talking about in our final episode on overthrowing fear?
Bernard Emerson 2:01
Following the Holy Spirit's lead.
Kyle Brooks 2:04
Oooooh, following the Holy Spirit's lead. Now, one of the ways this shows up as a cultural practice. Remember, we're talking about cultural practices that enable us to overthrow fear in our communities is that we regularly try new things. As a church, as a ministry. We are not afraid to experiment and even change direction entirely. If it's clearly the Holy Spirit's leading. So Bernard, why is this important in multiracial ministry in particular?
Bernard Emerson 2:40
This is important in a multiracial ministry in particular because this is new ground. This is new territory. It's new ground. It's new territory. It's a whole new frontier. Watch this. Where only the Holy Spirit knows the way. So it's good that we follow His lead, because He's a good leader. And He knows the way.
Kyle Brooks 3:07
That's right. Sometimes I know theologists out there, like theology of mission folks that have talked that say that, too often, we say that God has a church and the church has a mission. But the reality is that God has a mission. And he has a church for his mission. And the Holy Spirit is God Himself, working out His mission through the church. And if we are, we believe doing a crucial, vital aspect of the mission of God, through multiracial ministry, then it stands to reason that we better be following the lead of the Holy Spirit because it's His ministry to begin with.
Bernard Emerson 3:50
Ad watch this in a multiracial church, it is impossible to please everybody.
Kyle Brooks 3:57
That's true.
Bernard Emerson 3:59
You know from experience.
Kyle Brooks 4:00
Yeah, we have some experience with that.
Bernard Emerson 4:03
It's impossible to please everybody. Some people don't like the worship. Some people don't like the music. Some people don't like the preaching. It is virtually impossible to please everybody. But being led by the Spirit. What it is is not a assurance that you will please everyone, but it's good insurance when developing plans and strategies. And let the Spirit lead you in developing those plans and strategies.
Kyle Brooks 4:32
That's right. So okay, so if we're letting the Spirit lead us, how can we be confident that the Spirit is the one leading us? And I'm asking that because we all know, we all know somebody who's like, the Spirit of the Lord told me
Bernard Emerson 4:52
The Lord told me that's the trump card.
Kyle Brooks 4:54
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Well, what am I what can I say to that? Yeah, right. So let's just assume that it's possible for someone to say the Spirit of the Lord told me no and be wrong. And it's possible for someone to say the spirit of Lord told me it'd be right. How do we know the difference?
Bernard Emerson 5:12
First of all, the spirit of Lord told me, it's not like the leader coming down from the mountain and got the word of God directly to him. And he's gonna come in and tell you what God said.
Kyle Brooks 5:25
So that time when you came to the church with those two tablets, that was what was that?
Bernard Emerson 5:32
So so, like, in collaborative discernment. Like, there's wisdom in having a group of people that you're getting knowledge from, and that's an inch or a way that you're being led by the Spirit.
Kyle Brooks 5:50
Can I stop you there for just a second? Because I think it's worth making a biblical point here. I feel exegetical point here from the Bible that so very frequently when when we read that the Spirit is given to you. Like YOU in our Bibles, we we should be reading like the the southern translation, like the spirit has been given to y'all. Yeah, because you in English, it could be singular, it could be plural, but in Greek, to know the difference when you read it. And it really is very frequently the case and in New Testament, when the church is told the spirit has been God has given you a spirit of Jesus is sending you His Spirit that you is a plural you. And so there is a real real value in discerning the will of the spirit, in community.
Bernard Emerson 6:40
Yes. And also to have people praying. And you would want to be praying, too.
Kyle Brooks 6:48
Is that important?
Bernard Emerson 6:49
That's very important.
Kyle Brooks 6:51
Yeah. It's not just like it just this thought occurred to me. And so that must be God's Spirit. It's like, I might actually want to be praying,
Bernard Emerson 6:58
Man. I was trying to think of some that rhymed, but I can't think of some right now. Okay, I can't think of anything right now.
Kyle Brooks 7:08
It's shocking, because normally you can always think of a rap. This guy used to be a rapper, y'all. This used to be this guy used to he knows his rhymes. But yeah, I mean, it's not to say that you got to be praying in the moment that the Spirit speaks like God, like God can't talk to you and you're not praying. Of course He can. But that if you are looking to actively discern the Spirit's guidance, the goodness and the wisdom that the spirit has to give you for making a decision for your ministry. You ought to be prayerful about that.
Bernard Emerson 7:36
You better be prayerful about that right?
Kyle Brooks 7:37
Or else you can be pretty sure that it's not the Spirit guiding you.
Bernard Emerson 7:40
Right. And another thing, does it align with scripture? Does it align with scripture?
Kyle Brooks 7:47
Yep. So testing that. That leading against what scripture would have to say about it. In fact, maybe a specific scripture would be helpful in some cases, because sometimes I think we say that sort of like generally, like, those are the lines of Scripture. And then we we really just baptize like our intuition as like a biblically informed intuition. So like, well, I don't see any red flags off top my head, so I'm not really gonna think it through. Yeah, right. I think he's specific scripture that we can always run, the rubric of the Spirit's guidance through, is Galatians Five, the fruit of the Spirit. Yep. It stands to reason that the Holy Spirit will never lead us in a direction that causes us to be formed away from the fruits of the Spirit. So if a particular decision, might we can see that like, that's a prideful decision, or particularly decision is going to cause me to be it is not a peaceful decision. Particularly decision is not one that is full of self control, right? Or gentleness? Like, it probably isn't the spirit guiding you to do that because the fruit of the spirit or the spirits fruit like he wants you to have those.
Bernard Emerson 9:05
Yeah. So, you know, in these podcasts, we like to point out a biblical example. Do you have a biblical example?
Kyle Brooks 9:15
Yeah. I mean, not necessarily specifically of this, the fruit of the Spirit rubric, but definitely of the Holy Spirit leading in a way that was unexpected. And the people of God following him. So in Acts 16, in Acts chapter 16. Paul is on one of his missionary journeys. He wants to go into Asia. But the Bible says that he is kept from going into Asia by the Holy Spirit, or he's kept from going into Asia by the Holy Spirit says that twice that the Holy Spirit kept them from going. They tried and they couldn't get it. And, you know, I think this is kind of an interesting text because we don't know how the Holy Spirit kept them. We I think a lot of Christians assume that like Paul was praying about it one day, and the Holy Spirit was like Paul, not Asia. You know, I don't go there. Maybe maybe he did. Who's to say, but it also could be that like their you know, cart kept breaking down on the way to Asia. And they're like, man, what is going on? Because this cart is new. You know, I made this wheel myself. There's nothing wrong. Why is that donkey getting sick on the side of the road all the time? You know, like, man, I don't know, maybe they they didn't have their their visa, you know, all set to go. But they whatever happened. Paul discerned it as the Holy Spirit, keeping them from going there. And so he said, Okay, I guess I guess God Spirit is not wanting us to go that direction. That didn't get him stuck. That didn't make him go, Well, I guess I'd better just sit here and not do anything. It said, Okay, I bet I'd better go in another direction. And so he went, and the only reason that we have these incredible stories of Lydia who was an early church leader and became an early church leader, the her conversion came because Paul went the other way. They're all in Silas, getting miraculously freed from prison and then staying in prison so that the jailer would see and receive the gospel is full household would be say all that only happen. Because Paul and Silas were kept by the Holy Spirit, right? I'm going into Asia, and they went the way the Holy Spirit told them to go or lead them to go. So I
Bernard Emerson 11:39
I said to you the other night, it reminded me of King James, Jesus must need me to go through Samaria.
Kyle Brooks 11:50
And as if I didn't know that, James was from East Oakland, yeah. The old King James. Yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah, I mean, the the Holy Spirit leads us in ways that we wouldn't have expected Yeah, times. I think that's part of what we see in Acts 16. Right. And so I'm curious to know, like, what are some of the ways you have been led by the Spirit? in unexpected directions?
Bernard Emerson 12:16
The most unexpected direction would be the foreman of what is now known as tapestry church.
Kyle Brooks 12:23
And yeah, that's true. Yeah. So give the people a little background about tapestry church, because we're, it's a tiny church in Oakland that like people may or may not know.
Bernard Emerson 12:33
So tapestry church is a result of your former church plant, and my former church plant, came together and merged and made one church, we took a pretty much a black community of believers and pretty much a white community of believers and merged them together. And as a result, man, we get to experience every Sunday, people from every color of the rainbow. Yeah. And I had no intentions on merging my church with some white guy from LA. Why? I had no intentions, but men as we got to hanging out and coming friends and becoming fast brothers, and then realizing that we had some of the same aspirations and dreams for ministry for community and a church. And then we just like met, why are we doing this apart?
Kyle Brooks 13:36
You know, one of my favorite stories to tell about that, about that time, is how, you know, our launch team and our core, like our core team of our church plant. Yep. We, as you know, I mean, we always had the vision to be a multiracial church in Oklahoma, we as did you, and we had been praying for a long time for God to bring a partner, a ministry partner, who had a different racial background than we that I did than we did. And, and we imagined it being like somebody who would join our church. You know, maybe they would come on as a associate pastor to me or a worship leader, or maybe even a co pastor if we felt comfortable enough or whatever, right? But they would be coming into our thing. Right. And we were praying for that for many, many months, while you and I were getting to know each other just as friends. Yeah. And then, you know, the thought did occur to me, man, it would be so fun and so great to pastor with with Bernard. And but one day, we're on a night walk. It was stolen during the ceasefire movement, right? Yep. And you came on those night walks with our church. And one day you were I think you were up ahead and a couple from our church, who who started it with us. They were very faithful leaders in our church. They came up next to me they're like, hey, so is there any been any, any you know, luck finding that person? We've been praying for and I was like, No, I'm not really, you know, been trying, but you know, and then they were like, Well, what about? What about pastor Bernard? And I was like, what? Oh, man, that would be amazing. Don't think I haven't thought about it. But like, he's already got a church, you know? And then that night, you came up to me in the parking lot, you're like, Hey, I gotta talk to you. You know, like, Hey, I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about replanting my church. And I got this offer from this bigger church to come and like, be on their staff, and they would like planted says aside, and I was like, whoa, whoa, hold up, hold up, hold up. Don't don't take that meeting. You got to talk. Because yeah, that
Bernard Emerson 15:38
Dude has been mad at you ever since.
Kyle Brooks 15:44
But that's like, that's the Holy Spirit. You know? Yeah. We did not plan on merging church. Right? Is like we plan on doing our own thing. And somebody joining our work, but God said, No, you need to the communities coming together. Yeah. Is a way more powerful example of my kingdom. Yeah. Then two individuals coming together. Yeah. And and that, that right there is like, wow, the Holy Spirit kept us from going to Asia. Yeah, you know, and send a south. And, and I've been grateful to him ever since.
Bernard Emerson 16:16
So, the Holy Spirit kept Paul, and Silas from going to Asia. Can you speak about something else that holds the Holy Spirit possibly has kept us from doing?
Kyle Brooks 16:28
This one is more recent. And maybe a little bit more painful for being recent? Uh huh. But we really saw it. We were supposed to be doing Spanish speaking ministry that we and not not just like a Spanish Ministry, but like, a Spanish church plant. Yep. Right. And for a whole variety of reasons. That didn't work out. And it was the it was the right decision for it not to work out. Like the things that needed to happen needed to happen. If we were trying to be led by being formed into the fruit of the Spirit, it was clear that the right decision was to shut that down. But it was painful. I mean, I bet Paul really had ideas write about why he wanted to go to Asia and who was there and why it was an important place to do ministry and how much he loved the people there, whatever. We felt that same way about the people, we feel that same way about the people who speak Spanish in our neighborhood. But God kept us from going they're here. And honestly, right now, in this moment in history, I don't know why. Right. But I do know, that the energies that we were putting into that we're putting in other places now. And I really believe that the Holy Spirit is gonna use those things. Yeah. And he's going to, he's going to bring other people in the meantime, to connect with the people who are predominantly Spanish speaking neighborhood who can do it better than we ever could on this. And maybe he'll lead us back there one day, just like he led Paul back to Asia one day. But in the meantime, he kept us from doing that. So I also think it's worth saying, you know, if if you're listening to this, and you're like, driving your car, you're washing your dishes, or you're doing whatever you're doing, and something is coming to mind, like, the Holy Spirit. Maybe it was the Holy Spirit that kept us right, from doing X, Y and Z. Right. You know, like, maybe maybe that wasn't a failure in the strict sense of the word.
Bernard Emerson 18:25
You know, you know, it's funny, you were talking about this? Because a lot of times we take that as negative. And as a result, we automatically point the finger at the devil to enemy,
Kyle Brooks 18:42
Man. Yeah, say that again. Or we point the finger at people in our church at leaders in our church. At an at people who didn't volunteer enough or do enough. We blame someone.
Bernard Emerson 19:00
Yeah. Something or someone.
Kyle Brooks 19:02
It's weird feeling disappointed.
Bernard Emerson 19:06
Maybe it's just the Holy Spirit telling you to go another way.
Kyle Brooks 19:11
Yeah. And I think that when you lead from a point of view, when you're when you're doing a multiracial ministry, from the point of view that the God who created the universe is sovereign over it, if he's the real sovereign, the real king, yeah. Then the fear that you're a failure, that you got it wrong, or that somebody messed things up, or whatever, that doesn't need to rule. Right, we can overthrow that. And we can follow the Spirit's lead.
Bernard Emerson 19:41
You know, I got this thing in my head where people always blaming the devil. Oh, well, somebody just like
Kyle Brooks 19:57
The devil will always take credit.
Bernard Emerson 20:06
Especially if you give it him.
Kyle Brooks 20:08
He will always take it. Like, that was God. But I'll take it because now you're looking at it from my point of view, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, it man. So good. That's so good. Friends, this has been an absolute joy. You're getting to do this podcast with you getting to do this season with you on overthrowing fear. We really, really hope that it's been something that has lifted you up. That is given you a little something to do or to take away in your ministry or even just like a little bomb like, Oh, me too, like, I've experienced that too. Or, or I just needed to hear that today.
Bernard Emerson 20:46
I'm gonna be like, so what do we do for next season? Oh, is it is it celebrate beauty? Or do we create peace?
Kyle Brooks 20:56
That's a good question. Those are our other two core values and multiracial ministry that Pastor Bernard just out just outed just gave you away, which is wonderful. It's celebrate beauty and create peace. We're planning future seasons, to come out on those values on those topics and on the cultural practices that will help us embody those values, right? So we'll have to decide which one we should do. Maybe if you should tell us should we do celebrate beauty or should we do create peace next season? You can you can hit us up on any of the socials or any of the you know, YouTube comments or whatever you let us know.
Bernard Emerson 21:36
Or multiracialministry.com.
Kyle Brooks 21:39
You can contact us through there as well. We'd love to hear from you and what you thought of the season and what you think would be most helpful to you in future seasons. Before we go.
Bernard Emerson 21:49
I was just gonna say the same thing. I know what you're thinking. Yeah, I know what to think. But I was gonna say the same thing that
Kyle Brooks 21:55
That I am our resident recommender?
Bernard Emerson 21:59
No.
Kyle Brooks 22:02
I guess we didn't know each other that well.
Bernard Emerson 22:04
That we had a very special ending for you all in this episode.
Kyle Brooks 22:09
Yeah.
Bernard Emerson 22:09
And that will be done by our resident recommender.
Kyle Brooks 22:15
Yeah, you know, so we're talking about following the Holy Spirit's lead. And before we dive into this last moment, because we do want to end with this moment, we want you to take this away with you and hold on to it. So before that, we'll do the whole obligatory like, share, subscribe, do all those things. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends, with your pastors, with your elders, with the whatever ministry partners that you have, or people that go to your church, we would love for this to get in the hands of as many people as possible and help as many people as possible to the degree, it's been helpful to you. So I needed to say that so that you could take away this from the last moments that we have together and season one. Instead of recommending a book to you. We're gonna say a prayer over you. This is from a compilation of prayers called Conversations with God. Two centuries of prayers by African Americans. This book has been compiled, edited by James Melvin Washington, Dr. Washington. We want to say a prayer over you that actually is a pastoral prayer, from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. That he prayed in 1956. There's a little bit of old language in there. There's some thees and thous and whatnot. He also had some King James in him. But we're gonna pray this over you as we go. This is this is sincerely our prayer for anyone hearing the sound of our voice, who has engaged in or hoping for multiracial ministry in your life.
“Oh, God, our heavenly Father, we thank thee for this golden privilege to worship Thee, the only true God of the universe. We come to thee today grateful that thou has kept us through the long night of the past, and ushered us into the challenge of the present, and the bright hope of the future. We are mindful, Oh God, that man cannot save himself, for man is not the measure of things. And humanity is not God. Bound by our chains of sins and finiteness we know we need a savior. We thank thee oh God, for the spiritual nature of man. We are in nature, but we live above nature. Help us never to let anybody or any condition pull us so low as to cause us to hate. Give us strength to love our enemies, and to do good to those who despitefully use us and persecute us. We thank thee for that church, founded upon thy word that challenges us to do do more than sing and pray. But go out and work, as though the very answer to our prayers depended on us and not upon thee. Then finally, help us to realize that man was created to shine like stars and live on through all eternity. Keep us we pray, in perfect peace. Help us walk together, pray together, sing together, and live together, until that day, when all God's children from every race will rejoice in one common band of humanity, in the kingdom of our Lord and of our God, we pray. Amen.”
Thanks for listening.
Bernard Emerson 25:45
We want to thank you for listening to the Multiracial Ministry Mindset Podcast, where we are dedicated to helping you lead a more unified people in a divided world.
Kyle Brooks 25:55
And if you enjoyed this episode, why don't you share it with a friend or follow and subscribe yourself and if you want to connect more, you can always find us at multiracialministry.com and on Facebook and Instagram at multiracialministrymindset. See you next time.