Becoming Life-long Learners of “The Other” - Ep 6
Show Resources:
Jemar Tisby, The Color of Compromise. Great book for white Christian Americans trying to understand some of the black experience of racism in America and coming from white Christian people.
Esau McCaulley, Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope
Show Transcript:
Kyle 0:02
Welcome to the multiracial ministry mindset podcast in a world that feels more divided than ever, leaders and multiracial ministries face unique and imposing challenges.
Bernard 0:13
Our goal is to equip you with the principles, stories and tools you need to lead a unified people and a divided world.
Kyle 0:21
We're not church growth gurus, and multiracial ministry is not a recipe for numerical growth.
Bernard 0:27
However, it is a recipe for growth in the fruit of the Spirit. When we lead multiracial ministries Well, we can disciple a new generation of Christians attuned to how the Spirit of Jesus is speaking to the spirit of our age.
Kyle 0:40
So my nameis Kyle Brooks, and I am a white pastor from East Oakland.
Bernard 0:46
My name is Bernard Emerson. I'm a black pastor from East Oakland.
Kyle 0:49
And together we pastor at church called Tapestry church a multiracial expression of God's kingdom, right here in Oakland, California.
Well, welcome back to the multiracial ministry mindset podcast. We're so grateful to have you here joining us for this sixth episode in our very first season.
Bernard 1:13
Yeah, six already!
Kyle 1:14
Six already. If you haven't noticed, I mean, if you're, if you're listening and not watching, we're wearing the same clothes. So it's six already, because it's the same day. But this has been super fun really learning more about our own work and ministry and experiences just by having this conversation so it's been super fun.
Bernard 1:37
It has been.
Kyle 1:38
So Pastor Bernard, tell us what we've been talking about this season.
Bernard 1:43
What have we been talking about?
Kyle 1:45
What have we been talking about this season?
Bernard 1:47
My favorite episode has been multiethnic versus multiracial. Yeah, and, and just because that just set the stage for this whole thing. And so we had that that is by far the favorite episode. And if you get this podcast in a bundle, if you start anywhere, start there, because it'll lay the foundation for everything else.
Kyle 2:09
Yeah, that's right. That's why it's like episode zero. Yeah. Because episode one really jumps right in to this first season's value, which is overthrowing fear. That's what we've been talking about this whole season. We've been talking about various cultural practices that help us to actually overthrow fear in our ministries, in our churches, in our own lives.
Bernard 2:35
Is that what you was asking me? overthrowing fear?
Kyle 2:39
You know, I just ask the questions, you answer them however you want. But today, we're going to be talking about what practice?
Bernard 2:47
Becoming lifelong learners of the other.
Kyle 2:50
Before we dive into this, we initially named this something else.
Bernard 2:55
Yeah. Being experts of the other.
Kyle 2:58
And so why did we tell it tell the good people at home? Why we change this title,
Bernard 3:02
We changed this title, because this is an ongoing process. Like you will never arrive at the point where you are expert at the other. And by calling it experts of the other, we would literally have to explain that experts meantt being a lifelong learner.
Kyle 3:23
Right? Exactly. Just like when you preach, be perfect as I am perfect. You kind of have to say this is more of like an aspiration. You know, not something that you could ever claim to have achieved. So yeah, we're talking about becoming lifelong learners of the other. That is any other person in your ministry, in your church context, in your connect group or small group, whatever that means. And this is what we mean by it. We learn about each other's cultures and backgrounds because we know that we fear what is unknown. We strive to make ourselves lifelong learners in each other's cultures and stories. We fear what is unknown, that's why we have to learn each other's so that we do not need to fear each other. So say a little bit. Pastor Bernard, about why this is so important. In a multiracial ministry.
Bernard 4:19
So like you said, We fear what we don't know or what we fear, who we don't know. And there's so much of each other's experience, each other's cultural contexts, ways of speaking, that we just don't know. So that makes us fearful.
Kyle 4:38
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I think about it when I was a little kid, I don't know maybe four or five. My brother and I were terrified of our parents bedrooms, but only at night. When after we got put to bed when the door was open, and their room was dark, and we couldn't see the end of the room because it was so dark in their room. And I remember we would get up out of our room and walk out into the hallway, just to go shut their door. So that whatever was inside couldn't get us. And we would, you know, usually it was me because my brother was older, and he would trick me into thinking that he had done it last time, but I I remember tiptoeing up to the room very slowly, you know, very cautiously and I wouldn't even set a foot inside, I would just lean across the threshold.
Bernard 5:29
Would you're looking there?
Kyle 5:30
I would well, I mean, I had to look, because you know, you never know what's coming at you, you know, so you got to be able to catch it, you know, and keep your guard up. But I leaned across the threshold and grabbed the door and slam it shut as fast. I can't we'd run back to our room here. Because you fear what you don't know. Yeah, it's natural and human beings from the times we're little kids, you know, we just we fear what we don't know. And so if there's a lot that we don't know, about our sisters and brothers in our church, or in our ministry, or in our neighborhood, or in our company, or wherever that is, we're going naturally to fear things about that person that we don't need to
Bernard 6:08
Where do you think that fear comes from? I get it, we fear what we don't know. But where do you think that fear comes from?
Kyle 6:18
Oh, man? Well, that's a big question. I mean, I think that some of it might just come from the fact that like, it's a really helpful survival trait. You know, like, you don't go into dark caves too many times before you find out there's a lion, and they're gonna eat you. So it like the people who didn't have that fear, maybe didn't survive long enough to pass things on. But on the other hand, you know, in today's world, there aren't that many lions trying to eat us. You know, you're not usually trying to undermine me, but I'm afraid of it sometimes. You're not usually trying to make me feel less than but I'm afraid of it sometimes. What's going on with that? I mean, for a Christian, I think at the very least, it might be an unwillingness to believe the truth of the resurrection. Or maybe not an unwillingness, but just a lack of capacity to see just how comprehensively Jesus has provided for us, and protected us. You know, like the early church went willingly into the arena, to be devoured by lions. I mean, they looked at fear in the face. They didn't know it was coming out of the other gate. They knew it was horrible. And they went into it anyway, because they had fully received the comprehensive protection of the resurrection. I think that maybe it's not why the fear exists, but it is certainly why sometimes we why we live in it. Why we live subjected to it. I do know, though, that like there is something natural about just fearing what's unknown. And so they're like, also natural remedies for that. Like, getting to know right, what you don't know.
Bernard 8:11
That's good because when we started Tapestry, we said we didn't want to create a space where people were just worshiping together on Sundays. But we wanted to create a space where people were actually involved in the ugly parts of other people's lives.
Kyle 8:31
Yeah. Where people weren't known fully. And loved fully. Just like God knows us fully, and loves us fully. That we wouldn't just know each other as like, oh, that cute, white person or at the church, or oh, that cute black person in the church. But we would know, like you said, the ugly parts of each other's eyes, the difficult part, the challenging parts. And we would still really love each other.
Bernard 8:55
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, getting them to worship together. That was the easy part. Or that is the easy part. But like, getting into each other's lives, that's something different. And that's where that that love starts to cast out all fear.
Kyle 9:13
That's right. And that's also why like we we say this routinely, at Tapestry that we, we want everybody in our church to be in a connect group. That's our version of small groups, right to be in a connect group. And that's not just a line that we say, and it's not just a thing that we want, because we want our connect groups to be full or anything like that. But it's something we say because we know the impact of connect groups on community and we know the impact of connect groups on helping people overthrow their fear of somebody else, because finally they that's not just that person who did that weird thing at church one time. That's this person. That's this person with a name and story, that I know, that I've prayed for, that I've learned from, who has learned from me. And that fundamentally changes the way we see community.
Bernard 9:13
It's fun to see how people interact in connect groups, how they really get to know each other. Yeah, how they really get in each other's lives, how they really eventually get in each other's business. And it's fun to see that because you see people started hanging out together. Yeah, just the other day they had a game night and dislike people who have no earthly reason to be hanging out with each other, were hanging out with each other. That's being a lifelong learner. And it's fun to see in connect groups, how those relationships take shape, and take place and people will start hanging out with each other people start. Hey, I'm praying for you today. Hey, man, I could tell that you look kind of down today. Hey, what's going on? Can I help you? And yeah, that's the good part of it.
Kyle 11:09
Absolutely. And, you know, it strikes me the more that we do that, the more that we are in both these sort of formal committed spaces, like connect groups, and these informal spaces, like just come to my house for game, you know, or whatever. The more we get to know the other person, not just as a type of person. But as a person, as an individual, with a with their own story, with their own fears, with their own mess, with their own successes, with their own gifts. And when you are known as an individual, so much of the stereotyping and typecasting and tokenizing that can happen in a church starts to break down really quickly. In a multiracial space in particular, I think it's really, really important to get to know people as people.
Bernard 12:05
Okay. I want to talk about something else here. Pain. Because I think it's equally important that we share in each other's pain and nothing says, I'm here for you like sharing, and someone else's pain. And then I want to talk about the importance of just sharing someone else's pain with him.
Kyle 12:34
I remember when you when you did that for me. I mean, I remember when I was diagnosed with cancer. It was something that clearly affected you, clearly affected you. Can you tell folks a little bit about that?
Bernard 12:49
Well, when you got diagnosed, and you called me and told me, man, I really felt like, well, first of all, I didn't want you to be going through it. I actually was just like, man, why couldn't it be me? Well, why? Why did it have to be Kyle? Why couldn't it be me? Because I don't know. You're my little brother. And I just felt like I could have handled it better. I just feel like that. Like if it hadn't been me it the man you're younger than me, man.
Kyle 13:17
A lot. A lot younger.
Bernard 13:18
Yes. A lot younger. You had a little baby on the way. Yeah. And I was just like Lord. I just I feel like I got that diagnosis with you. It was hard. It was really hard for me to pray. Because of the emotions that are brought up. It was hard for me to pray because I didn't know what to pray. I didn't know how to pray. And I think I found myself being upset with God at the fact that you had cancer. Thank God that it's over and you got over that hump. But like, I felt like I got that diagnosis with you?
Kyle 14:09
I felt that I felt that from you. I mean, it's part of the reason why you are one of my first calls, because I knew that you would be there for me like that. And you that you wouldn't just be there to try and tell me everything was gonna be okay. You would be in the pit with me, which is what I really needed. And I mean, it's not just what I really need. It's what we need. In general, when we're in pain. We usually don't need people to try and fix us. We got doctors. You know, we need people to be in the pit with us. Just like Jesus came to be in the pit of this messy world with us. Just like he went all the way down to the grave. I mean, if there is a pit, you know. I think about the story of Ruth. They are in a pit. Naomi's husband, two sons died. She's living abroad. She's got her two daughters in law. And she's just like, look, I'm going back to my people to my country to my, you know, places of worship, I need to be around my people, and you should go back to your people. Your life doesn't have to be over. My life is over. Yeah. And Ruth replies, don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go, I will go. And where you stay, I will stay your. Your people will be my people. And your God, my God. Where you die, I will die. And there I will be buried. In other words, I will be committed to you even after you're dead. May the Lord deal with me be it ever so severely if even death separates you and me. If we were to have that mindset, in a multiracial ministry, or multiracial church, how clearly would the rest of the world see the good news that God has said this exact thing to us in Jesus? Yeah, where you go, I will go and where you stay, I will stay. Yeah, your people will be my people, I will become one of your people. God said that to us. If we had this mindset with each other, your people will be my people. I mean, how clearly would the world see Jesus in us? I also think, you know, it's worth saying that for white folks in particular, this is a challenge.
Bernard 16:34
Okay. More about that.
Kyle 16:37
Because most of the time, people of color have had to grow up in, at least in my experience, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I've had to grow up in a world where there are lots of white people in front of them in their media choices, whether they choose it or not. Yeah, there are lots of white authors that they're forced to read in school, whether they choose it or not. Yeah, there's a lot of the white story of European civilization in the United States story taught from a white point of view, white people don't have a similar level of unintentional exposure to minority folks stories and histories, or work current art, and art and authorship and filmmaking. And we just have to actually choose intentionally, to read more authors of color to watch more film that was not made for us in Lego is not made with us in mind to it take in more art that we wouldn't normally choose in order to be lifelong learners, of the brothers and sisters that we love in our community, so that we can can so that we can connect and engage. We're never gonna learn everything. That's why we're not gonna become experts. Life is too short. But we can intentionally say your people will be my people. And part of what that means is, I will take in what you've taken in to the degree that I'm able to do that.
Bernard 18:13
Yep. If you truly love someone when you're in the pit with them, if you're truly committed to them, what hurts stone will hurt you. What makes them happy. makes you happy. What makes them smile makes you smile.
Kyle 18:28
Yeah, absolutely. One of the other things I think that's worth noting is that when you truly know someone that was longer, you have been a learner of another person, the more you'll be able to see their hurt. Before they tell you about. Right. Like, I know, when my wife is hurting usually before she tells me. I know, when you're hurting, usually before you tell me. And there are lots of people I can't say that have, because I don't know them is well. But in a multiracial setting, in particular, with all the things that are happening in our world. I think that it's deeply important for Christians and ministry leaders and participants in multiracial spaces, to know each other well enough to know when someone is in pain before they tell them. Because you can't always reach out when you're in pain. You don't always have the strength to just call someone and be like, Hey, I'm hurting. Can you just be with me? But you do often have the strength to take the phone call. To say, Man, I can't believe they're call me I know, but and yeah, I'm going through it. So that is why these groups are so important. Whatever, ministry opportunities people have in their ministry to get to know each other. Not just be in the same space, but to really get to know each other get to know each other. That's invaluable.
Bernard 20:00
And it stands to reason, right? I don't know, maybe, because it just me, but I feel better about worshiping with people that I actually know. And there's not so much a level of comfort. But there's a there's a pleasure that comes along with, like, Man, I love this person. This person loves me. And we're worshipping a loving God together.
Kyle 20:26
Amen to that. It makes even the worship sweeter.
Exactly. Yeah, that's
Exactly. Well, it comes to me to make some recommendations.
Bernard 20:36
Yes, the resident recommender.
Kyle 20:38
How can one be a lifelong learner of the other? Well, I said that this is a particular challenge for white folks. And it is and so today, I actually wanted to make specific recommendations for white folks out there or for people of other racial backgrounds that are black, yep, to do some learning. There are a million things that could recommend a couple books that have really helped me or helped me learn, sort of historically, how the white church in America has been complicit in some of the racial segregation and racial pain of that the black church has experienced. Great book by Jamar Tisby called The Color of Compromise. And if you are like wondering, we've talked in previous episodes about like shared history can be shared pain and hurt. And if you're if you're a white person at home, and you're just like, I don't know where all that shared pain and hurt really comes from, just read this book, read the color of compromise. You will know. You will know at least a good chunk of where a lot of this shared hurt and pain comes from. You'll be able to understand better when people are talking to you about it. The other book really has helped me understand more of A) Black Theology and that's been really, really impactful to me. It's called Reading While Black and I've got it here. Color of Compromise. I'm sorry, Jamar, I got it on Kindle. So and Jamar, if you're out there, if you're listening, Mr. Tisby. We would love, is it doc? Dr. Tisby, I think. We would love to have you on the podcast, too.
Bernard 22:14
He's Presbyterian, right?
Kyle 22:15
I think so. I think so. And I grew up Presbyterian. So we're practically brothers. I mean, we are brothers and Jesus. So we would love to have him on our show Jamar. And we would also love to have Esau McCauley join us at one point. I know a lot of you listening would love to have Esau McCauley joining us.
Bernard 22:34
He's Anglican isn't?
Kyle 22:36
He is Anglican? Practically, brothers. I mean, it's incredible. Esau McCauley wrote this wonderful book called Reading While Black African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope. And the reason I love this book is that it really takes seriously the reality that we all interpret Scripture from a perspective with the lens of our own experience, our own history, our own culture. And it doesn't therefore say, Well, I can say that scripture says anything. But it does say my experience is important as as a black person for how I read Scripture and what I get out of it and the questions that I come to Scripture with, yeah, and and it's just an invaluable read. If you're trying to understand how can you read Scripture faithfully, and also differently. You can't really do better than Reading While Black. So those are my two recommendations for today. Thank you so much for joining us. For another episode of The multiracial ministry mindset. Yes. And where can people like, share, subscribe and do all that stuff?
Bernard 23:45
So you can find us on most social media outlets. And YouTube. You can find us on just about any podcasting medium. So please, if you liked this podcast, if you've been enjoying what we've been talking about, or intrigued what we're talking about, or just like, don't even like us just tell a friend anyway. Anyway, tell a friend.
Kyle 24:12
Pretty much if you're hearing this sound knew of our voices. So yeah, tell a friend. Like, share, subscribe, do all the things. Mash the button, as they say in Britain, and we would love to continue joining you on this journey toward a multiracial ministry mindset. You can also find us on multiracialministry.com. And there'll be more resources and ways to connect there as well. Thanks for joining us today, and we'll see you next time.
Bernard 24:37
Thank you. We want to thank you for listening to the multiracial ministry mindset podcast, where we are dedicated to helping you lead a more unified people and a divided world.
Kyle 24:49
If you enjoyed this episode, why don't you share it with a friend or follow and subscribe yourself and if you want to connect more, you can always find us at multiracial ministry dot calm and on Facebook and Instagram at Multiracial Ministry Mindset. See you next time.