Apologizing Quickly and Fully - Ep 5


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Kyle  0:11  

All right. Well, welcome back to the multiracial ministry mindset podcast. We are so glad to have you. My name is Kyle

Bernard  0:21  

I'm Bernard. 

Kyle  0:22  

And we are your hosts for today. What are we talking about today in overthrowing fear

Bernard  0:29  

We overthrow fear by apologizing quickly and fully.

Kyle  0:36  

Apologizing quickly and fully. It's the fully part that I think might get some of us today, and might be stepping on some toes, but we're gonna we're gonna go there.

Bernard  0:48  

We're gonna go there.

Kyle  0:49  

 All right. So what does it look like in practice, to apologize quickly and fully?

Bernard  0:54  

We apologize quickly and fully. When we wrong someone, we don't apologize for how they feel. 

Kyle  0:59  

Woah, say that again.

Bernard  1:01  

When we wrong, someone, we don't apologize for how they feel. We apologize for what we did. But we don't own more than we did. Which would also come from fear. But we do own everything that was genuinely our fault. We're not afraid to be vulnerable in this way because vulnerability breeds trust on our team and in our ministry. Yeah, we are quick to confess and repent to the appropriate people when we have failed in our leadership and in any way. And in this way, we normalize repentance. Our people know that they don't have to be afraid to confess sin to us.

Kyle  1:46  

Man. So that is the practice. That is the practice. Why is this important, specifically in multiracial ministry?

Bernard  1:59  

Well, in multiracial ministry, we're gonna hurt each other. We we talked about this a little bit in the last episode. Somebody's gonna get hurt. Sooner or later. Yeah. And probably sooner than later. 

Kyle  2:15  

Yep. Somebody's gonna put their foot in their mouth. Yep, somebody's gonna say the wrong thing the wrong way. Somebody's gonna look at each someone the wrong way or not look at someone at all. And this is true in any community. But it is 10 times more true in multiracial spaces, right? And here's the thing, we will have to listen hard and we'll have to listen well, before we even fully know what we've done. Because nine times out of 10, we weren't trying to do it. We really weren't. And we don't even see what we've done wrong.

Bernard  2:56  

Well, and here's the thing. You won't even know it what you did wrong, if that person doesn't even confront you about it.

Kyle  3:07  

Right. So if you haven't listened to the episode on leaning into healthy conflict, you might want to pause this episode and go right back there because that's the beginning of this process. It's hard to apologize if you don't know what you've done, and nobody tells you you've done anything wrong. But when you are confronted with what you've done wrong, that is when you pause, those defensive feelings come up that says I didn't... You just pause and listen. And ask questions. How did that make you feel? What about that made you feel that way? Where's that coming from? And learn about it? Right, because nine times out of 10. We have no idea where that we're humming from and somebody else.

Bernard  3:56  

It's true. They say, one of the hardest things for us to say to somebody else is I'm sorry.

Kyle  4:05  

Yeah. It makes you put all that ego aside, right. And I think another point, and we made this point a little bit. We touched on it in the introduction episode to the whole podcast on why multiracial, because multiracial implies that we have a shared history. Because there is there it doesn't race doesn't exist unless there's more than one. And race only exists in order to stratify. That is its intention initially. So if that's the case, then just by saying we're multiracial, just by being multiracial space, we have to acknowledge that we already have a shared history of pain and hurt. We already have that before we ever even met each other, you and I had a shared history of pain. and hurt. And when you have a shared history of pain and hurt, there are things that you can do that are hurtful that would not be hurtful in another context.

Bernard  5:12  

Say more about that.

Kyle  5:14  

So for example, now, I'm not saying this is actually the case. For example, if my wife and I had had multiple conversations over many years about how I just don't clean up the dishes after dinner, and that makes her feel alone and unseen and unsupported and like, I'm not a part of this marriage. Okay, those would be some pretty big feelings. And some really important stuff. So if, after dinner one night, I just go sit on the couch without so much just taking my plate up to the sink. Look, sitting on a couch, not a sin in itself. Nothing wrong with it out of context, but in context, in the context is the context of our shared history of pain, and hurt. It's deeply wrong for me to do that, right? So and I don't even have to mean it. I don't even have to mean it that way. I don't even have to be like really trying to make her feel alone for it to be hurtful and for me to be culpable for it. So I think when we're talking about multiracial context, we need to be aware of our shared history of pain and hurt. Yep. And the way in which I might say something that's hurtful, even though in another context, it wouldn't be. That doesn't make it okay.

Bernard  6:42  

That's key. Just because it may not be hurtful and another context does not make it okay. And just because my intention isn't to hurt anyone. That doesn't make it okay. 

Kyle  6:53  

And if you think that we're just making this stuff, go read Leviticus. Leviticus is all about how to do things that are not okay. And some of the things in Leviticus that God says are sin he calls unintentional sin. Apparently, you can sin without meaning to. So it's not just about what's in your heart. That's important. But it is also about the impact of your actions. So in some ways we put this as you got to own both your intention and your impact. 

Bernard  7:36  

Yeah. So I want to get into something here that you're more expert at than me. 

Kyle  7:46  

Oh, yeah. I like the sound of that. Maybe I'm not going to in a minute, I don't know.

Bernard  7:55  

This idea of white guilt. So you could see why you would be more of an expert at it.

Kyle  8:03  

I may see why you wouldn't have very much experience at that.

Bernard  8:07  

But I want to just talk about that idea for a minute. And yeah so have at it.

Kyle  8:17  

Well, in a multiracial space, you're talking about apologizing? Tt is something that we should talk about, right? This idea that as a white person, maybe you are guilty for doing something or for inheriting the privileges that are unjust privileges that you hold that you do hold, that maybe there is something you should feel guilty for by being a descendant of slave owners, by being not even a descendant of slave owners, but just somebody who has inherited the the enormous wealth in the in general in the white community that maybe you didn't earn yourself, you know, you're you were given it through inheritance. All that to say, there's a lot of conversations in social justice organizing around white guilt. Now, I say that to say most of the actual conversations that are explicit about it, are usually my experience is hey, don't bring your white guilt in here. 

Bernard 9:10

Well, we met and now that was one of the things, don't bring your white guilt in here.

Kyle  9:27  

Don't bring your white guilt in here. And what happens is there's this really weird dynamic least in my experience, is that there are all these things that are being said that make white folks feel guilty. Like you have implicit bias, and you automatically without thinking, you write some people off or code some people as criminals who aren't. For example, that makes me feel bad to think that that's inside of me and makes me feel guilty like something just gross inside of me. But then folks will turn around and say no, don't bring your white guilt in here though. Right? And there's a good reason they say that too because what that ends up doing is that white folks end up going to do social justice work or organizing work, and centering their own feelings instead of the real pain of the people they're intending to serve. And that's not helpful. It's like trying to do penance, for your racial bias or for the privileges that you've inherited. And doing penance through social justice work, just doesn't actually help the folks who are on the underside of the the power dynamic. So one of the things that I think we have, as as you know, the current resident expert at white guilt, one of the things I think that we have as Christians is an incredible resource for dealing with this dynamic that the world doesn't have. And that is, we can tell ourselves the truth about where we are guilty without bringing our white guilt into the multiracial space, and living from that place. Why? Because the Gospel says, you are guilty. And you're okay. You are guilty. And Jesus has taken that guilt on himself. You are guilty. And that guilt was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago, it is not how God sees you, it is not how you should see yourself. So you can be honest with yourself, about how you feel about the ways that your bias has showed up in the world or about the privileges that you don't deserve to have, but you do have and feel conflicted about how you've used and you don't have to do your penance through social justice organizing. You organize for people of color, because you are grateful for them, because you love them, because they are God's children every bit as much as you are. And because you recognize that being free from the corruption of the world means that you help to free your brothers and sisters. So the gospel is, I think, fundamentally the reason why we can we can both apologize quickly and fully. Yep. And receive forgiveness. Yes, quickly and full and fully.

Bernard  12:33  

Y'all see why I like him? Y'all see why he's my brother. Yeah. As a resident expert on white guilt, well said.

Kyle  12:50  

Thanks, man, thanks. Hey, we were having this conversation the other day. You asked me the question, but I'm going to put the question back to you. When we're talking about guilt, there is one person in particular in Scripture who stands out as having been particularly guilty in huge ways, multiple times and yet he was called a man after God's own heart. His name was David. Can you tell me about what you said the other day about why you think he was called a man after God's own heart? Even though he was this guilty of a dude.

Bernard  13:31  

Most people, most Christians won't admit it, but David was a horrible friend. He was a horrible dad. And he was a horrible king. He was a horrible, horrible friend, because we always see Jonathan doing something for him, but we don't ever see him to doing anything for Jonathan. He was a horrible dad, because anytime your son is looking to kill you, you did something wrong. Not to mention is son raped his daughter. So he did something wrong as a dad. And he was a horrible king, because at that time, Kings went into battle with their troops and he's back at the garrison kicking back and he sees his good friend, Uriah's wife. And then he has her so he was a horrible friend, horrible dad, and a horrible king, but I think what made David a man after God's heart is because when David realized he was wrong, he'd hurry up and got his straight with God. He'd hurry up and apologize fully and quickly. 

Kyle  14:49  

Yeah. And he didn't say to God, God, I'm so sorry I made you feel bad. I'm so sorry you feel that way? 

Bernard  14:58  

It's more like create in me a clean heart. Renew a right spirit in me. 

Kyle  15:03  

Yes. search me and know me. Find if there's any wicked way in me. What if we asked each other? search me and know me.


Bernard  15:12  

Wow. 

Kyle  15:13  

Find out if there's any wicked way in me. Can you imagine how that would change things? it makes me think about it makes me think about 1 John one, two right and there's this passage where it says, God is light and him there's no dark darkness at all right? And if you walk in the darkness, you have no fellowship with the light. You're not having fellowship with God. I think a lot of people read that passage and they immediately think that means, oh, that means if you are sinning, you have no fellowship with God. There's no light and you. That's not what John is saying at all. If you read that, the full context of that passage, he goes on to say, like, the darkness is not confessing the darkness is not bringing to light the things that you have done. Letting light shine on that. If you are living in darkness, that means God is not right next to you because God is light. And if he's next to you, He's shining on you. You can't be living in darkness. Well, what the light does is it exposes your sin. And John goes on to say, if you say you have no sin, you're a liar. And you're making God out to be a liar. And you're living in darkness.

Bernard  16:25  

But what most most black people think, you know, Sanford and Son you probably too young. 

Kyle  16:32  

Oh, I'm definitely too young.

Bernard  16:34  

So Sanford and Son, there was a sister in law and her name was Aunt Esther And Aunt Esther would always say you're lying and the truth ain't in you.  People thought she came up with that. That was John. 

Kyle  16:49  

Exactly. Aunt Esther was right. And I think it's, it's important to say like, what John is saying is, the truth isn't in you not if you do things that are wrong. We all do things that arise so much so that if you say that you haven't  you're lying. So we've all done things that are wrong. The question is, will you allow them to be exposed to the light? Will you confess them when somebody approaches you with the news that you've done something wrong? Because sometimes it's news to you? Will you apologize? Quickly, and fully? Some tips for apologizing quickly and fully? The words I'm sorry, are really helpful. Not just like, Man, I didn't know. I didn't know. Wow. No, no, I'm sorry. is really helpful. 

Bernard  17:42  

And, and just owning it. Saying I'm sorry that I, finish that sentence. Yeah. I'm sorry that I did X, Y, and Z. I'm sorry that I said X, Y and Z. I shouldn't have done that. And mean it.

Kyle  17:56  

And mean it. Yeah. 

Bernard  18:00  

Since since we always try to point out in these episodes, a time where we may have done well with this a time where we may have done it not so well. Maybe poorly. Could do remember a time that somebody called you out about something you said in the sermon and you had to apologize quickly. 

Kyle  18:21  

I do remember. I remember more than one time. But one time I particularly remember, I was preaching a sermon on forgiveness of all things. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, I was preaching a sermon on forgiveness. And I used an example that I thought would be particularly culturally relevant to our multiracial context, was an example of a young man who had forgiven a police officer who killed his brother. Yep. And I had some ideas written out as to what I should say. And I went off script, and just quote unquote, spoke from the heart. For those of you who speak from the heart a lot, just remember that biblical passages says that the heart is deceitful above all things, right? It's not always a good thing to speak from the heart, especially when you're preaching. Sometimes you should speak from your notes as such, especially when it's a pretty sensitive subject. And I failed to do that. So I get an email. So you knew I had to be a white person. Yep. I got an email saying, you probably hurt some of the black folks in our community when you said XY and Z. And I thought, I don't even remember saying that. I genuinely don't remember saying that. And I did it. I remember saying that because it wasn't in my notes, right. But I went back and I looked at the video. Sure enough, I did say that and it is hurtful what I said. I didn't mean to hurt anybody. Of course, I didn't mean to hurt anybody, but that doesn't matter. I did do it. And I did hurt people. YeaAnd I remember calling you up and telling you hey, I need to I think I need to own this front of the church and so that day, we wrote a letter, and we sent it out to the whole church or just like what I said, how its impact is hurtful to people and apologizing for it. And that was a big slice of humble pie.

Bernard  20:24  

Kudos to you, and the Spirit of God in you. Like, when you realize that you immediately called me and said, Hey, this is what I did. And I need to make it right. Yeah. And so you apologize quickly

Kyle  20:40  

Well, and the only reason I could do that is because my, my identity isn't in how perfect of a pastor I am. I mean, sometimes it is, but at least on that day, the gospel was was true to me. You know, Jesus had already forgiven me for this. And the best thing I could do to help our community heal, to the degree that healing was needed from that was to just to own it. I think more people have been hurt by churches that weren't willing to own or definitely wrong they've done than churches that just did wrong. People know that, as a church or as a church leader, or as a member in a church, you're gonna hurt them from time to time. Yep. What they expect is that you'll own it. Yeah. And apologize for it. We're most in my experience where most church hurt comes from is unapologized hurt. Not just hurt. So that is one of more than one occasions when I screwed up bad. But hopefully in the process, we're able to model something as a as a leadership team. You know what that looks like? Okay, we got to go. 

Bernard  21:57  

But you are the resident recommender. 

Kyle  22:01  

Absolutely. And so today, the book I have to recommend if you want to dig more deeply into apologizing quickly and fully is this book by Brenda Salter McNeil called Roadmap to Reconciliation, moving communities into unity, wholeness, and justice. Roadmap to Reconciliation names repentance and forgiveness as two components of an ongoing process of reconciliation in multiracial spaces in traditional churches. And she she does a really great job of laying out a roadmap for how communities can continually move through the whole reconciliation journey together. So really recommend this book roadmap to reconciliation. It's short. It's easy to read, and it's really insightful and practical about how communities can move through this process. 

Bernard  22:57  

And she's awesome, by the way. 

Kyle  22:59  

Oh, man, one of the best speakers you're likely to hear.

Bernard  23:02  

She could preach the paint off a wall

Kyle  23:06  

She could preach the paint off a wall. I love that. Yeah. I was gonna say fire. But that works. That works even better.

Bernard  23:15  

Well, that wraps us up for today. Listen, if you liked this podcast, if you could like, share, subscribe to it that would be great. That would be great. And you can reach us at multiracialministry.com. You can find us on all the podcast avenues and on most social media. 

Kyle  23:45  

That's right. So feel free to engage with us in any one of those ways. We'd love to stay on this journey with you as we move toward God's multiracial kingdom. Thanks for joining us.

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